I have a yearling Alpine doe to kid in about 14 days. She has always been really toed out in front and (a Chamoisee in color) she has broken black stripes down both front legs! A hard call but we have been watching her. Today dd and I agree she looks like she's got "bent leg". YES, I feed alfalfa pellets at 4# per day and BB Techmaster Complete. She was copper bolused in September, pre-breeding. We had a ff doe (heavy preg with twin bucks) last year with it and treated wtih CMPK (oral solution) 30cc a day until after she kidded. Since then I have joined the forum here, changed our management and want to confirm the treatment and dose.
Even on the best alfalfa for calcium there are bloodlines and breeders who can not breed their does to kid as young as I do without bowing of the front legs. Too much protein? Not enough energy...another major mineral being overlooked in your area, magnesium? Not enough of a vitamin in the diet? I don't know. Diet is likely it, but bloodline may be a factor in what is happening at your place. Vicki
Thanks. That is what the breeder told me to use last year and to copper bolus. Mine are about due. I just wanted to know what the suggestions for treatment were.
The more I think about the subject, the more I wonder if all nutritional needs are being met, if Vit D deficiency might be an issue. No proof, just a guess. Without adequate Vit D3, even adequate calcium levels cant be metabolized properly. I put a couple of hours into looking for research in ruminents to see if this was a possibility, and came up with a couple of abstracts that seemed to indicate it might be involved, but nothing definitive. Would be really neat if someone with this problem was able to do some feeding trials that included VIT D supplementation to see if the problem got better.
I was hoping you would chime in Laura. Laura and I have been talking about this....well Laura is doing all the searching and reading and forwarding it to me to read I have all your PM's saved Laura if you need any of the info. I wish you would write a post on your feelings and findings on this issue for us to put in goatkeeping 101. Susie, the loss of skeletal strength that caused the bowing, comes back as she ages, but will not straighten the leg. On my website look at Birdy's foreleg, this is nutritonal, having kids at 11 months old...she is a grand old 7 year old now, healthy as a horse, and doesn't pass this foreleg (or I wouldn't be using her son but you can see even on my mangement you can't improve it. Keeping her lean, which in Nubians is realtive keeps her from going over at the knee and causing more problems in her shoulders. The other bow is like a pig ran through their front legs, outwards which usually shows up in mid pregnancy when young does are bred. Saying it's calcium is not the whole picture because most are on full choice high qulaity alfalfa 24/7, copper bolused....like Laura I think it will have a protein or something lacking that the calcium although in high amounts is not being utilized in the bone. Vicki
I wouldn't mind doing that at all Vicki, but its a hypothesis on my part, not definitive-as long as thats understood... What I REALLY would like to know is if anyone here has any good contacts in the goat research world, like the university based folks, that we could address the question to. If anyone knows of soemone that wouldnt mind entertaining the question, I'd be glad to write it up and forward it to them to see what they say. Some definitive info (anonymous of course) on the animals affected would be very helpful, as that might help identify things we can rule out. That would give them the basis to work with. Even without that, they might help us find info that Ive missed, or see improtant interpretations that I just didnt get. Whaddyathink???
OH, BTW, I'm about to sign off and tear up the computerrs to get the networkign in, at least I think I am after I call tech suport and see if i have everything i need. SO if i disappear, im not dead, just gotta get back online.
I had this problem last year -- but with mine it was rear legs mostly that were bowing out. Some had a slight bend to the inside from the pasterns down in the front as well though. This year I have NONE. My change? I went back to not graining kids at ALL. Not a bite. Yes, they are all pregnant and growing, but they are HUGE (some as tall as the 2 yr olds), and not a single one of them has bowed this year. Now I do feed a really nice grass/alfalfa mix hay. Some of it is more grass, some more alfalfa, but I do try to top dress extra alfalfa if we get a bale that doesn't have much (I feed one ton bales) You're in a totally different climate than I am, but if you have a couple left to experiment on, it may be worth a shot for you. I would imagine once it has started (unless it is very slight) it is probably too late to fix this year. All I can say is I went back to how I did things before I had problems -- and it worked. Tracy
We had one FF do this two years ago. (Rear leg bowed just a bit). She comes from a heavy milking line. Discussed this with Laurie Acton (DesRuhigsetelle Saanens). Her does are big, with huge beautiful udders that really really milk. she told me that some does need to wait until they are 9-10 months of age before they are bred. With all of their growing and then the drain of the kids and the tendency to put a lot in the pail (10-12 lbs /day on FF) that you are just asking too much of them. So we held the really big doeling back from breeding as well as the Titania daughter, and no problems. I did focus on the quality of the alfalfa as well and if we felt it was lacking we would give alfalfa pellets as a treat. Interesting discussion. Camille P.S. Dr. Parrish at WSU is pretty knowledgable about small ruminants and nutrition. Maybe you could send your info to him?
Thanks for the name Camille, I think I'll be working on it over the next week, Sounds like a good place to try.
