Barberpole and coccidia--Help!

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by stoneyheightsfarm, Aug 11, 2008.

  1. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    Hi all. VERY newby question here. (I've had 2 doelings since June first, and 2 bucklings since 4 days ago!) I took fecal samples to the vet today and discovered that my new bucklings are loaded with coccidia. I suspected something bad when their berries were black and mucous covered this afternoon. Vet said that the coccidia levels, on a scale of 1 to 4, are a 5. (Stress from move, weaning, taking temps and a couple doses of nuflor for a respiratory thing in the past 2 days??) So of course, I will be treating for that starting by weighing them first thing in the morning to make sure I dose accurately (More stress?? How are they gonna like being carried in the house to my bathroom scale?!). But, on one of the bucklings, she saw about 3 Barberpole eggs. She said there were just a few and that she wouldn't treat for that, b/c all goats have some of those. Obviously, I'm ignorant here, but don't worms need treatment? I thought all goats had a few trichostrongyle, not barberpole? Is it wise to not treat until after I've handled the coccidia? Should I get that taken care of first, then re-run fecals and address the barberpole after? Or do all goats really have barberpole and it's not a big deal? If not, how did we get barberpole to begin with?? I understand the coccidia, since all goats have some. Could it be in my ground?

    Also, since I won't be getting milk from these boys, would it be wise to slowly switch them to a medicated feed with decoxx or rumensin or something?

    While I'm here... Do y'all keep your older does on a coccidia program, or just babies? (My doelings --now 5 and a half months and over 70 pounds according to weight tape-- on that 1 to 4 scale were not even a 1.) And what do you use/do? Somehow, I overlooked most of this in my planning phase... (sigh)

    Sorry for this fragmented post. I'm typically a higher stress sorta gal, and this isn't making it any easier!
     
  2. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    Okay, I might have answered part of my question concerning barberpole. According to Answers.com, Barberpole, or Haemonchus contortus, are of the Family Trichostrongylidae, so I'm stressing out about 2 different worms that really are one and the same. Sounds like in my region, they're just going to be common--in the soil and can even come in through the skin--don't even have to be ingested on grass! Sooo.... it appears I need a de-worming regimen in addition to the coccidia prevention. I know, I know. Duh, right? Somehow, I was living in la-la land thinking that coccidia and worms can't happen to ME! (Well, at least not for a year or so with my fresh ground!) So I still need help. There are so many resources out there (in terms of advise and in terms of medicines/treatment/prevention regimens) and I feel a little lost swimming in a vast new ocean! What do I DO??? Thanks!!!
     

  3. Bella Star

    Bella Star New Member

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    You sound like me ... :crazy at times but calm down , First I would make a worming pen (so those worms stay mostly in the worm pen only and not contaminate your new ground ) ,one that you will use for worming the goats only and put those new wether boys in it , How old are the boys ? and how much do they weigh ? as this will be the deciding factor on what type of wormer is used and how much wormer to give . Where are you located ? (southern wet locations have more worms) .... Rule #1 Never put new goats in with your herd but put them in a holding area and check them out,worm and give shots first, hold them for at least 2-3 weeks in the pen.

    Your doelings are almost 6 months old and weigh app. 70 pounds and the new wether boys ??
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Pretty much no matter what a fecal says you should worm and cocci treat kids as they come onto your farm. By the time you see symptoms of cocci or worms in your kids, their intestines and blood supply are being attacked.

    The older kids I worm thm no matter what, the proof is in the fecal on the younger kids, they come from a farm with haemoncous...HC...so have the mama worms in their intestines laying eggs and sucking blood, so why not worm them now with the younger kids and then refecal in a couple of months, before you want to breed the older kids.

    Make sure when reading posts on worming and cocci your are dealing with information from forums that talk about the south. We have such different problems than up north.

    I would treat with Corid or a sulfa the little kids and put them on a feed through feed with rumensin during and after treatment, and there is no reason not to put the older kids on it also, mine stay on prevention feeds until 100 days pregnant, then are moved over the last 50 days of pregnancy onto milkstand grain without cocci meds in it. Plus this way you are only feeding one grain, you will go through it faster and you don't have to worry about mold or feeding stale feed.

    The worm pen idea is perfect, keep them in it for 12 hours after worming so the eggs and larve they poop out are in it and not in their pens. Vicki
     
  5. Goater

    Goater Guest

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    Would treating the ground in the worm pen with agri-lime be a good idea?
     
  6. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    The boys are intact--will be my breeding bucks when everyone is old enough. One was born the end of April, and the other the end of May. I will be weighing them this morning, since I don't want to trust a weight tape for a coccidia-ridden kid in making a medication dose. They're small enough, we can do the "hold them on the bathroom scale" thing.

    They are separate from the girls, obviously, but I don't have a space to make a worm pen for them--at least not one with shelter. Can I treat the ground? What do I use? I will definitely be scouring the barn, and I have hydrated lime and more wood shavings I can put down. Should I look at using DE? I suppose I could fence off the back side of their run and since it would only be for 12 hours, that would be okay? Then what do I do with that ground?

    I am definitely in the South, with warm, humid weather. (Although, with a husband from SC, he thinks TN is debatable as to whether it's really in the South! ;) I'll be giving Di-Methox 40% orally to the boys. Should I go ahead and worm them while doing cocci treatment? Is this going to be too stressful?

    I will call the feed mill today about feed. I don't know if they will mix medication in (they do minerals and ammonium chloride, so I don't know why not) but if they don't I suppose I'll be looking for another feed source and gradually changing...

    Thanks... I'll keep y'all posted, and if you think of anything else to add (like what type of wormer?) I'd be much obliged!
     
  7. Ravens Haven

    Ravens Haven New Member

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    YEs I would worm them too along with coccidia treatment. As for wormers you should use either Cydection pour on (orally) or Valbazen. But I will let someone else chime in on that one to let you know which one.
     
  8. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    Okay, just weighed the boys. The older one is 37 pounds and the younger one is 31 pounds. The older one is the one who also had a few HC eggs, but he also comes from smaller parents than the younger one. He's not too far off the birth + 10 pounds per month, and the younger one is awfully close to it, too. So, not too much damage from coccidia as of yet?

    Anyhow, with di-methox 40%, Vicki, you said in another thread, "1cc per 10 pounds given for 5 days...I always use banamine and diarsynal with treatment." Given my boys' weight, do I want to do 3cc for the younger and maybe 3.5 for the older? Should I weigh daily and try to measure exactly-- like 3.1 cc today on one and 3.7 cc on the other and then re-evaluate daily? (My husband would love me for dragging him out to the hay room with the scale every morning!) And why do you do banamine and diarsynal with treatment? What is diarsynal? What if I don't have these?

    I saw the cydectin at TSC yesterday, but didn't get it b/c it said pour on! So, get this and use it orally? Or Valbazen? Which would be better? (know that I'll just have to get what is available) What would be the dosage, given those body weights?

    Thank Y'all, SOOOOO much!
     
  9. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    I just gave first dose of di-methox 40%. I clearly don't know how to give goats oral meds well. I know they got some in them, b/c they were making funny faces at the taste, but I also had quite a bit on my hands. How badly did I mess up? Does this mean an extra day of treatment?

    I found a feed mill that has goat chow with decoxx in it. It's 16% protein, just like my dairy buffet ration but doesn't have BOSS in it.
     
  10. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    grain helps maintain but it won't be dependable for prevention. you need to use the 40% Hopefully you got your self a applicator (syringe) and not just a plain ole injection syringe.
    but both work put the tip of syringe in the back of thier mouth at the side an push. holding their mouth shut till they swallow. :) and yes if you think you lost most of it then do an extra day.
     
  11. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Not Vicki...but I'm going to try to answer some of the questions.
    That's if a kid is scouring uncontrollable. We don't use it with just the 21 day treatment.Diarsynal is used to coat the stomach to prevent damage to the intestines. Banamine is an Rx item from a vet, Diarsynal can be ordered from Valleyvet.com.
    Parents size doesn't matter. If these kids came to you with this load...then the parents probably weren't treated either so you don't know what their "genetic potential" is.
    Not unless you have lots of time on your hands. I weigh everyone the first day before treatment, then dose them for 5 days at that weight. Heck, sometimes I even add a few cc's. It's not imperative that you get them dosed at exactly the weight. Just don't underdose them.
    Yes, worm them the 1st day of the treatment, preferrably with Cydectin for the HC. And no, unless you are extremely rough in you're handling...this is not stressful. They are going to have to get used to being handled.

     
  12. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    Thanks, Kaye & Sondra! I know my breeder does sulmet in the drinking water periodically, so we were thinking that this heavy coccidia load came from the moving/weaning/nuflor stress??? Also, from looking at the dam's dam (at a different farm) I think her line is all just a tad short. She was bred to a very tall buck, so we're hoping that this little buckling will have better height, but looking at his legs, compared to the legs on the little guy almost a month younger, I don't think he's gonna be too tall. :/

    Also heard that the Cydectin might be overkill, especially for a first worming on kids this young??? Would that be mis-information, or should I try using something a little less strong? If Cydectin, at what dose?

    Yes, I just used a plain ol' syringe, minus needle. I do have some dosing syringes that I got a Walgreens for giving meds to my two legged babies. Would it be preferable to use those, instead?

    Also, I'm getting the di-methox 40% from the breeder. I've been searching online for some to keep in my medicine cabinet, but can't find anyone who has it in stock. Any of y'all know of a source? Also, if I can't get it, would Albon from the vet be okay? Vet quoted me a dosage amount at twice what the dosage for di-methox 40% is, which makes me think it's just not as strong...? But will it still work?

    Breeder is going to show me today how to correctly administer oral meds so I don't wind up with it all over me. Would it be overkill to give the same dose again later today, even though much of it wound up ON me, instead of IN them?

    Again, many thanks. Y'all are so wonderful!
     
  13. paulaswrld

    paulaswrld New Member

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    Hi all, I am the breeder and not only are the goats treated, they had fecals run on the 31st of July knowing they were going to new hones, and were clean. The other kids on the ground left here on the 3rd for Alabama and had fecals run again on Friday in Al. and they were clean.

    Now, you all know that in the world of goats, I am also a newbie but I had been told that cocci can rear it's ugly head basically overnight...I have assumed that the stress of the move, getting colds, new folks has brought this on??

    Paula
     
  14. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Thanks Paula for chiming in...this helps to know where the kids came from. Ok, I take back my statement about the parents! Paula has been on here long enough to know what to look for in coccidia. So, we're NOT dealing with a case of neglect.

    Yes. It's the same drug~ Sulfadimethoxine~ albeit at a much less mg/ml. Reason for the higher dose from vet. Or you can order Dimethox powder:
    http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&mscssid=6H0W85HL1NHB8JAC2WPR2X88GNRF71HA
    This is the lable dose for calves and it's about a 1/3 of the dose needed for goats.Dosage: 25 mg/lb first day followed by 12.5 mg/lb/day for 4 days.
    The dose for this powder is in goats 101.
    If you opt for Albon from the vet....please let us figure the dose. Dose for Sulfadimethoxine is 75mg/kg(2.2#)

    Nope, not at all.

    I use Valbazen on my kids when they are 3 weeks old. Then, they are wormed for the rest of their year with Cydectin (1cc/22-25#'s). I've yet to loose one from "overkill". I'm also in Southern Ark. and these parasites ARE my biggest concern besides coccidia.

    Kaye
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I know my breeder does sulmet in the drinking water periodically, so we were thinking that this heavy coccidia load came from the moving/weaning/nuflor stress???
    .............................

    Sulmet is worthless in the drinking water, so really no cocci treatments were done. Sulmet is only 12.5% sulfa, where Dimethox is 40%. You have to use nearly 1cc per 1 pound (90cc per 100 pounds) if you then dilute this into water you would be putting the whole quart it comes in in about 2 quarts of water and then they all would have to drink the whole 2 quarts :) It's calf information that is really even too diluted for them.

    If you can't eventually get Dimethox 40% yourself or Paula runs out :) than use Corid or look at pipevet.com for another sulfa that perhaps a higher percentage than 12%...or you are stuck with Sulmet or Albon.

    I don't care if a kid just comes off prevention at the new farm, if I find cocci on fecal I put them right back on, plus I worm no matter what. In fact if the breeder says I am going to worm her, I will tell them, I will do it at home.

    It has nothing to do with the quality of Paula's herd management, it has to do with how smart parasites are...they know these goats are stressed from the move, so they start sucking blood and multiplying, they want to live also.

    So no offending is possible, because no matter who you buy from this advice would be exactly the same even if you bought from me or Kaye or??

    All the not worming because....if you have worms and you don't worm they die. There is no not worming because. Just make sure you are using the correct wormer.

    Make sure when you switch your grain over for them you do it slowly and that it also contains AC for your boys. Vicki
     
  16. Kaye White

    Kaye White Guest

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    Thanks, Vicki...

    Now, you two....since you have your hands on Dimethox 40%, how about treating these kids with that this time....then going to Corid every 21 days? The doses are simple, the prevention is simple, and it works given at the doses listed in goats 101.
    Kaye
     
  17. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    OH my gosh please don't try treating or even prevention using feed thru or water treatments for cocci It just won't work
     
  18. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Would treating the ground in the worm pen with agri-lime be a good idea?
    .............

    Have you ever been to club when Dr. Craig or Craddock came for fecal refreshers? They said that nothing but a hard freeze or arid conditions worked in the soil. As soon as they poop the eggs and larve evacuate the poop because if they get stuck in the poop as it dries they die, they only can move through moisture. Why you would have to have alot of hens to get at all the poop just pooped to really do anything, because all of this is microscopic, not as in worms stuck on the ground or in the poop a chicken could see. Why when you do fecals you have to watch them poop and instantly pick it up, even then I want them mashed and looked at, or at least mashed and floating right away, because you can't see if they have migrated out of the poop into your ziplock. OK not fact here just supisition :)

    I just use cattle panels and put up a pen in the morning, worm and put the goats from the pen I have done into it. Then take it down the next day and it becomes part of the mowed yard for us. Vicki
     
  19. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    Thanks, y'all.

    Vicki, my vet told me the Albon dosage would have been double the di-methox 40% dose--2cc/10lbs on day one, and then stepping it down to 1cc/10 pounds on days 2 thru 5. I would like to hear your take on that.

    Also, I talked to the feed mill man, and he said his medicated feed is the same as the feed I'm using, except that it has decoxx and no BOSS. I asked about Rumensin, and he said he won't work with the stuff. The medicated feed also has the Ammonium Chloride. How slowly would you recommend the switch? I planned on mixing the two for a few days to a week... sound right? I'm about to go pick some up now... So, I shouldn't depend on it as a preventative but will it help?

    Speaking of the right wormer, it seems the consensus here has been Cydectin? Since they're older? So, I should use those last 3 cattle panels, a few leftover fence stakes and ties, and put up a worm pen for a day? How much stress are we looking at here? I probably shouldn't do it in my back yard where my children go barefoot...
     
  20. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    Your children won't catch anything, it's microscopic and will be in the soil in no time. Your dogs and cats have poop that can infect children, not goats :) But nothing is healthier than farm kids!

    Call and ask the percentage of the Albon...Kaye is our resident dosage gal :) But no unless a small ruminant specialist or he has several goat herds (not just nannny and billley goat herds) that he services he likely doesn't even know his albon dosage is woefully lacking. :) We love our vets anyway we just smile and use our own dosages of the drugs they perscribe us!

    If the formula in the two feeds is exactly the same then simply switch them over. Make sure and ask the mg/kg of the deccox they put in so you know how many pounds a day they have to be eating for thier weight so you know when you can stop giving the oral drugs for prevention and the drugs in the feed can take over. I raise all my kids on feed with deccox in it, mine comes out to be 1 pound per 30 to 50 pounds of the pellets. So no top dressing with this or that, pellets only. Well of course their hay. My pellets are alfalfa meal based.

    There isn't any stress with wormings...are you talking about tame goats here or wild one??? vicki