Another vet vistit and more opinions needed please...

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by MiddleRiver, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Well i've posted before about coughing and some snot issues i've had with the three kids i bought this year from two different farms. It's been going on since June i belive. I've consulted with my vet and had him visit several times, and consulted with the farms i got them from. We have tried Biomycin, penn. G, Nuflor, and have all have been wormed and had cocci prevention. It was just these three kids till about 3-4 weeks ago, now my doe i've had the longest and one of her kids has the same thing going on. So now all but one of my bucklings, a Feb. doeling, and another doeling ( twin of the one now showing signs ) have this.

    They cough - but yet nothing comes out and vet says lungs sound clear. The kids before had snot/crusty noses, then after some of the treatments we've tried just the cough remained. Now i haven't noticed snot with them again, maybe just a bit of crusty here and there. However the two others have the cough and the snot - if they sneeze white snot comes out.

    I've also noticed when the one doeling that nurses her dam is done nursing she has snot - she isn't supposed to be nursing, and i plan to do near 100% hand raised kids this next spring, but her dam i let raise her kids this year ( my herd has always tested CAE neg. ) - then i weaned them and had them seperate for 1.5 mo. and low and behold, she let them start nursing again - so now that i have my bucklings i also don't have a seperate pen anymore - any ideas how to really wean them so i can dry her up ? Anyways back to the real issue - sorry :+)

    There have never been any high temps in anyone - and i continue to randomly take them to make sure. Nobody has ever acted off - they run, play, eat and drink normally. We were thinking at first with just the 3 maybe lung worms, so we did 3 treatments of ivermecting at 10 days appart. No luck, now at the end of that was when the vets last visit was ( Mon. ). Vet also said now after that worming round, and now spreading like this and that i'd have to have bad management ( and said and you don't ) he doubts lungworm. Again, all lungs still sound ok. But they do cough, and have snot - and the vet has seen this on his visits. One doeling that i bought and has had this problem since the beginning also sounds congested - like when she is eating, or when i bend down to love on her i hear bubbling/noise when she breaths - the others aren't like this. I'm just REALLY feeling at a loss here and want my herds health 100% again.

    At first after our treatments vet said, maybe it is something that just has to run it's course. Now he says he is not thinking so as it's been so long ??? And he admits, he is kinda stumped but is determined to help me solve this - so i'm asking all of you for ideas for us. He says he has two options for me. We can throw things at them and treat all the herd ( 3 mature does, 5 doelings, 2 bucklings ) and see if that works, but he said if we are not lucky and find the cause/solution it could cost me more then option #2 - if we did this, do any of you have a good reccomendation of what to try ? Two of my does may be bred as well - i really need these two to freshen in Feb. - but of course, i will put there health first and re-breed if need be.

    Option #2 is bring one of the kids up to the office that shows the symptoms, put her under ( he said he would use the gas - is this safe ? he said he has used it many times with kids and has been ok, and knows i worry about it with my goats and my pot belly ) and borrow an endoscope, go into the throat/lungs, get a sample and send it to the lab for a culture and then go from there. Est. cost around $150 - the culture alone is $60 - is there a lab that we could send to that is cheaper ( he asked me to ask you too ) or is this standard price ? He said we could try to just send in some snot, but chances are it would grow too many things and be inconclusive and most likely a waste of money.

    He has also brought up mycoplasma before - i'm about to try to research this more as well. He hasn't mentioned anything lately about it, so may not really think thats what this is. Could it be though ? If so, HOW can i test for it ? And can i treat it ?

    I'm feeling defeated and REALLY need input from you all please. He keeps telling me not to stress too much, nobody is going to die, or suffer for life, as nobody acts off, lungs sound good - we just need to figure it out - can i trust this ?

    On a funny note, as we did bose shots and exams of everybody, when he was doing my buckling Cadbury, he was bending down looking him over while i was on the other side holding him, and Cadbury aimed and pee'd all over his leg - lol - he and his tech helper even got a giggle over it as i said, "ummm, he is peeing on you, sorry ".

    Sorry this is so long, and confusing. Thanks for reading all my ranting.
     
  2. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    *I* would go for the culture myself. Using gas anesthesia is safer than injectable anesthesia, it wears off quicker and is easier to regulate. I have never had to anesthetize one of my goats, but I do know it is the preferred method of lots of vets out there.

    Occasionally I will get a kid that coughs and seems to "grow" out of it without treatment...but they usually don't have snotty noses and it doesn't spread. It almost has to be some sort of bug if it's contagious like this.

    My brother had a similar problem with his calves, although he was losing them like flies to it. He killed one of the sick ones and sent a lung in....I don't recall what the bug was but it was resistant to all the drugs he had tried (Nuflor, Micotil, Penn G, Excenel) and as soon as he used one it was susceptible too (happened to be Excede)....no more dead calves. Point being....if you can get a good culture and sensitivity...it may just be a case of finding the right drug and that would certainly be preferred to just trial and error on the whole herd.

    As far as drying the doe up...I don't know as taping teats would work as the kid would probably suck it right off. I think separating somehow would be your best bet.
     

  3. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    I asked a similar question a while back about taking a "sneeze sample"... perhaps the responses I got might be helpful?

    https://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,5620.0.html

    I had this coughing/white snot stuff in my herd after bringing a couple new goats home. (Pasturella?) It took a while (probably not as long as yours, but I don't have as many as you do to keep passing it back and forth to one another) and it did run its course. One of my does sounded congested and that bubbly noise you were talking about for quite a while after all the other symptoms disappeared. In my case, it was apparently viral and needed to run its course.
     
  4. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    mill-valley - how long do i have to keep the doe and her kids seperated ? I thought she was dry - or as dry as she was going to get, and they were seperated for 1.5 months - will she always let them start nursing again ? how common is this ? She raised her single doeling last year too, and they were seperated for only 3 weeks and she didn't let her nurse again.

    I am thinking the culture is the best bet too - however after this last visit, and winter things needed this time of the year ( propane and whatnot ) i won't be able to afford it for 1-2 months - i am worried about waiting so long. Any ideas/opinions on this ?

    He was also thinking it was something that had to just run it's course - but now is unsure due the the amount of time they have had it.

    stoneyheightsfarm - you know, you brought up a good point about your doeling sounding like that after the symptoms, now that i think of it, the one that sounds like that is one of the original 3 that had it, and i no longer hear her cough - haven't for at least a week anyways, and also haven't had snot/crusties from her either - due to her sound i make the vet listen really good to her lungs too - as she sound the worst breathing-wise, but he assures me it's not her lungs - says maybe her nasel area the sound comes from ??? She was also from WA and was vacc. for Pasturella before she made the trip here so i don't know about that ??? She is the only one i belive vacc. for it.

    How long did your doe have these symptoms ? did it spread in your herd too ? Like i said it started with the 3 kids i bought, 2 from one farm in MN, and then silky whom is from WA. They got here in May, and the symptoms really started June - i heard a cough here and there from my buckling 3 days after he was home though. Now within the last 4 weeks or so, my adult doe Daisy ( she is 3.5yrs old, and i've had her 2.5yrs ) has it and is very snotty when she coughs it comes out her nose - and one of her doelings is the same. They don't just have running noses, but when they run/nurse/cough it either bubbles out, or flings out. So far, one of my 2 bucklings and a Feb. doeling born here, and Daisy's other doeling, and another 2yr FF doe ( the one the Feb. doeling is out of ) are the only ones that never showed signs so far, the rest have it.

    I'll go read your post :+) Thanks for the link !
     
  5. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Have you tried Tylan 200?? It is over the counter drug
    I sure would try it before I put a goat under but also when you used ivermectine did you use the ivormec plus?

     
  6. mill-valley

    mill-valley New Member

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    Even if the doe seems dry...the kid nursing her will bring her back into milk. I would try seperating for a while, then put them together for a day or so and see what happens...if she nurses again seperate a while longer. Occasionally they will stop letting kids nurse once they are bred but that's not fool-proof either.
     
  7. stoneyheightsfarm

    stoneyheightsfarm New Member

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    I brought my boys home Thurs., August 7th. They didn't have anything before we left their originating farm, but by the time we got to my house (30 minutes away) one had that thick white snot that you talked about. We thought maybe shipping stress/pasturella? Or maybe since they had been at a show the previous weekend, they picked up some bug--seems a goat cold was going around at shows here about that time--and the stress of the move/weaning lowered the immune system enough to let this bug have its way? Anyhow, on Sun., Aug. 10th, I noticed slight fevers--could have just been the heat, and both boys had this sneeze/snot/cough. Gave nuflor (the 2 doses, can't remember the spacing w/o looking it up) This didn't seem to do much good. Within the week, my girls (February babies, brought home in June) had it. (They could be nose to nose thru a fence). The sneezing w/lots of white snot, coughing, and bubbly breathing (particularly out of one) lasted maybe until the beginning of September? Bubbly breathing lasted the longest. I know that's far less time than you're looking at, but to a newbie, it seemed like forever! It was worse in the mornings and evenings, with afternoons not so bad, other than that cough. Vet visited on August 19th and didn't think it was much to worry about. The one w/the most bubbly breathing can sound bubbly on a chilly-for-this-time-of-year morning still, but most of the time sounds fine. I think she just has narrower nasal passages. Anyhow, don't know that all that helps much, but fwiw, that was my experience! Really, I think what Leslie and Vicki said on that post I directed you toward is probably more beneficial for your situation.
     
  8. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature Active Member

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    Chrystyna,

    I feel your pain. A borrowed buck brought a cough here last fall and the cough and snots went through all of my does and then their kids in the spring after they were born. About 30 goats got sick. Talking about feeling defeated. i was also very ill all spring and could not properly care for this 'cold" the goats picked up. I crossed my fingers and called it a virus.

    Some still have the snots, it has been a year, but the coughs are all but gone. None are "sick", if that makes sense. No kid deaths, no goat deaths at all, no real "sickies". They are bright eyed and bushy tailed.

    I am letting it run it's course, it is all but gone. The goats simply kept giving it back to each other especially after the kids were born. It was like a day care center and all the little ones had the snots. Because of this, i was unable to sell kids. I don't sell sick goats so I just kept all the kids this year, lots of them. They are big and thriving, no problems.

    Mine were dam-raised this year too, neg. CAE herd. As I said, i was ill this spring and could do no better. The kids are 7 months old and still nursing. The kids and does run together as a herd and I have made no attempt to wean. If i want milk, I separate out 6 does at night and milk them in the morning.

    I have lots of doelings now and am going to hold them over or breed them depending on size. They will be up for sale later, they are very hardy things.

    Anyway, in your case, i would get as clean a snot sample as possible. Try to get pure snot without debris on it, get the inside snot if that makes sense, not the perimeter snot. I think the vet wants to make money off this goat and also, the gas will be dangerous.

    I finally had to let go off the stress that the "cold" was creating in me and then things were fine. The herd is almost cold free and it just took time and regular care.

    Also, I think dam-raising this year may have given them antibodies.
     
  9. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Tell you what if these were my goats they would all get a shot of BoSE massive doses of Vit C and an antihistamin like benedryl or expectrohist.
     
  10. Feral Nature

    Feral Nature Active Member

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    Mine have had benedryl but we have no more BoSe for now :(

    I wanted to add to the post about my situation: My herd is closed essentially except for breeding bucks so they have very low Resistance. If i showed, i would imagine they would be exposed to more.
     
  11. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Thanks again everybody :+) It is just so hard to feel so helpless :+(

    Sondra - where can i get Tylan 200 ? Can i give it to everybody including my just bred does ? And at the dose you posted with the info ? Also, they just got their bose shots Monday. I have some horse stuff called Anti-hist - and i have some generic ben. - can i use those, if so whats the dose - or do you need the ingrediants first ?

    Even though i don't like to hear others have had issues, at least i don't feel alone :+) Thanks everybody !
     
  12. Jo@LaudoDeumFarm

    [email protected] New Member

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    When we bought our present herd of goats about three years ago we had very similar things going on. I believe it is a combination of stress and pasturella or some other kind of bug. We dealt with it by treating the immune system, as we couldn't be sure if antibiotics would work for them. I think initially we may have used a sulfa drug, both for cocci and because they can help with respiratory issues.

    Many of the goats got over it withing a few months and I had one who carried it into the next year. Once it got warm her snots cleared up and she has not had a problem with it since.

    I can't say that it would work for you because it really depends on what is causing the problem. Perhaps treat a few if was a bacterial infection and see if there is an improvement for them. Then you can decide if you want to treat the whole herd with antibiotics or let them ride it out.
     
  13. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    I don't have time to go back and read the posts but most chronic issues are simply the continuation of the same old thing. Drugs rarely used at the right dosages or with the right combo to really touch the offending bacteria or used when it's a virus. Or as simple as lungworm going through the herd with meds used without a diagnosis, and you find out you have one of the two different forms of lungworm that isn't killed with Ivermectin. Like biteing and sucking lice, Ivermectin only gets one of these also.

    You wouldn't let something like this hang on in your children, you would ditch your doctor and get a second opinion, yet we all deal with vets who relatively know nothing more than us about our goats, most of the time alot less, and we stick with them.

    I would do a baerman for lungworm, have a real fecal sent into the same lab to be read.

    The problem with not treating aggressively...Naxcel/Banamine/Dex is that you then get scar tissue built up in the lung, your does then become hackers and coughers after exercise or even wheezing continuously.

    Why not vaccinate the whole herd for pasteurella? Although only used in healthy animals if you don't have fever I would still give the shots.

    Goats do not get 'colds' or allergies. It's nearly always the upset of pasteurella bacteria in the nasal cavaties, either a stress caused by moving, worms, humidity, poor living conditions (wet, amonia etc) so it's chronic, or comes on full bore to fever, illness and death.

    Do you have a local goat friend? Someone who can come over with a fresh set of eyes and really give your place and your goats a once over? Vicki
     
  14. MiddleRiver

    MiddleRiver New Member

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    Thanks for replying Vicki :+) Ok, so since it still could be lung worm i will have my vet to the baerman. I'd get a second opinion, but he is the only vet around here for goats, and though he is still learning, he is more then willing to learn and really wants to get this fixed too.

    So even though he checks there lungs and says they sound good, i could still have perm. damage to their lungs ? This mostly seems to be nasal - all except for the cough.

    Also with the pasteurella vacc. - i have no quams about doing the whole herd, but is it safe since tech. they aren't healthy ? No fevers, just the snot/coughing. Could this help ? Should i order and vacc. them all ( the young ones and just bred does ) ?

    Thanks !
     
  15. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    The vaccine is not a live virus or even a modified virus so it would cause no problems.

    He needs to find a lab to send the fecal to for the bareman. I would start with that and then perhaps do a nasal swab, I would not do this procedure, I have never even heard to doing that, anything he would need could be done with a swab up the nose. Vicki