3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain (hypocalcemia problems).

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by farm mom, Apr 6, 2008.

  1. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    My La Mancha FF who is due April 23 is very sick. She has been on 3 lb of alfalfa pellets a day and slowly moved up to 1lb of grain in the the last couple of weeks. She finally went off of feed and I thought it could be hypocalcemia so was treating for that. Still no improvement and not eating hardly at all. The size of her stomach (the kids) have shrunk considerably the last two days so I assuming the kids are dead. I finally called this morning after seeing no improvement. This vet is highly regarded in the area for goats. She basically said I am killing/killed my goat because that is waaay to much grain. Her rumen is shot. Gave a name for it but don't remember what it is. She said basically she is dying and if I am aggressive I may be able to save her but we don't know. She suggested Penicillin IM, banamine IM, no alfalfa, no grain, only grass hay. But she said it may be way too late to save her since she has been sick for more than a few days now. She has a low grade fever and is pretty sure the kids are probably dead or will die. She said if I see any signs of discharge to go in and get them. I may very well still lose the doe anyway. She said 1lb of grain a day was way to much. She has a low grade fever as of last night.

    The problem is this: I am brand new to goats. I just delivered my second kid ever last month. She gave me all kinds of warnings for the penicillin IM injection. The exact place to give it, don't ruin the muscle, don't hit a blood vessel or she will die immediately. I don't know how to do all this! If I see any signs of discharge go in and get the kids out. I have seen mucus all week off and on. Do I go in? I have never even done that before. How do I know if the cervix is dilated? She said she may be to weak to even go into labor so I would need to probably do everything myself. She said the best thing to happen for her would be to abort the kids so she can try and heal. Even then she may not make it. La Mancha's are very hard to find in my area and I paid a lot of money for her and am very attached to her. Now it sounds like she may not make it. The vet could not come out today because she was headed to an emergency call for a horse that was an hour away. I asked if she recommended any other goat vet in the area but she said there really isn't any other competent ones (which I agree with). Man, I was just following what I have always read to feed, didn't know I was killing them.

    Any thoughts? Anyone deal with this before?
     
  2. Halo-M Nubians

    Halo-M Nubians New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    I'm sorry but whatever is wrong with your goat its not what your feeding! standard protocol here is working up to a pound of grain, maybe more so their eating their milking ration when they kid. I've always done it and I'm not the only one. The AP is just ground up hay..I've fed it as the only roughage as well. Your probably dealing with ketosis now..How were you treating the hypocalcimia?
     

  3. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Mishael is right and the vet is wrong regarding feed however I would take her off the grain for right now and get her back up. Is she on her feet?? and what exactly is her temp?
    CMPK injectable is the fastest acting for hypocalcimia is she chewing her cud is she ruminating?? Is she drinking pleanty of water?? if not she probably is dehydrated and needs lactated ringers. ASAP
     
  4. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Yes she is up on her feet, even pushing the other goats away from the feed but she won't eat it. But mostly just standing there looking uncomfortable. I can't get the injectable CMPK (or even the oral) from this vet because she is convinced that isn't the issue. Other vets don't do goats. I am using the oral. I have been nutridrenching her too. I saw her chew a bit of cud last night, need to go out and watch her for a bit this morning. Not drinking plenty of water. I don't have lactated ringers and this vet is out all day. Anything I can give her orally to help with the dehydration?

    Any thoughts on what to do about the kids? Don't know if they are dead or alive. Just leave that situation alone for now?
     
  5. DostThouHaveMilk

    DostThouHaveMilk New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Tiffany, where are you located?
     
  6. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    OK if she is up that is a GOOD thing. put koolaid or gator aid in her water I personally would lay off the nutradrench and give her the oral cmpk 30 cc twice a day. I personally would leave the kids alone if she is up and walking around. put some salt on her tongue so she is thristy. what are you using for cmpk ?? put some baking soda out so she can take some if she wants to. But don't force it down her. What is her temp? Yes please give us a location and put it in your signature line
     
  7. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    I am in Bend Oregon. We are giving her the "grocery store" version of CMPK. She has baking soda free choice. She was even butting the other goats out of the way and ate a few handfuls of grass hay but not enthusiastic about it. Is not looking weak or shaky at all. I will go take her temp. now and report back. Last night it was 102.8.

    When I weight taped her last weekend she was 150, this morning she was 115! She has visibly lost weight this week not eating as much. I bought a bale of alfalfa a few days ago to try and spark her appetite but didn't do much.
     
  8. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Temp. is 102.6. Pooped on the milkstand, looked normal.
     
  9. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    So, my thought is does she have hypocalcemia? Has been eating less, lost weight, doesn't want grain, picking at her hay. But, she has been like this for seven days now. No loss in temp. (has been consistently between 102.5-102.8), not weak, wobbly, shaky. Udder has been getting bigger. But "baby belly" looks smaller. Now last night the temp. was 102.8 and this morning 102.6? Is that anything significant or normal?

    The vet I talked to this morning said she had a low grade fever when I told her the temp. was 102.8 (last nights temp.) I thought this was within fairly normal? Am I incorrect?

    Don't know why that smiley face is in the middle of my post, didn't put it there! But should read 102.5 to 102.8
     
  10. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    you are correct that is withing the normal range so nope don't believe she has a low grade fever. Do you have any beet pulp?? Black oil sunflower seeds? a cedar tree somewhere? even oatmeal regular kind not instant. Try intising her with any of these things to eat something. Corn chips is also something they like (not too many of those tho) and branch of cedar usually is a good thing. parsley, a leaf of comphey. willow branch course you may not have them greened up yet. Keep her hydrated anyway possible and only offer her a tad of grain 1 cup morning and eve but hopefully alfalfa etc will be her mainstay once she starts eating again.
     
  11. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    When you say grocery store are you using Sue Reith's recipe and all the ingredients there?
     
  12. old dominion

    old dominion New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    With no reduction in temperature and the alfalfa pellets she has been eating I think you are dealing with Ketosis. Has your doe had any swelling in the rear legs or was she in "good" flesh prior to her going off feed. There is a big difference between being fit and pregnant and large because of fat and pregnancy.

    Take a look at these links:

    http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/milkfever.htm

    http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/ketosis.htm

    If you have grass hay or clean straw make it available to her with fresh water.

    Also, do you have any poly glycol?

    http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/medications-2.htm#pg

    You can pick it up at any farm store. Until you can get some try making some magic mix

    1 part Molasses
    1 part Corn Oil
    2 parts Karo Syrup

    Jolene
     
  13. KJFarm

    KJFarm Senior Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    You probably need to get this goat to a vet with some "sense". An IV would help her tremendously, then keep her on CMPK. If she's still putting milk in that udder, that's good. Could be her belly looks smaller because the kids have turned in a different position. Try gatorage or apple cider vinegar in her water to encourage her to drink. Too much of propylene glycol can cause them not to want to eat, really can kill their appetite. Are you sure of her breeding date? If this is a classic case of Ketosis, you may want to make a decision on which is more important - saving the doe, or the kids. If the doe is more important to you, then you could induce labor to help her try to recover.
     
  14. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Thanks all for your help and suggestions. No this doe is not fat at all. She is a slim girl, no swelling in the legs. I do have some beet pulp and BOSS. No cedar trees and the willows haven't budded out yet. She was at the breeders for two weeks so we could be off by that time frame (150 days would be April 28 so two weeks earlier would be April 16) but breeder said the April 28 due date was when she was bred so I am have no reason to doubt it. Since she is not 100% off of feed yet I will CMPK, vit. B complex, probios, gatorade in water, try to stimulate her appetite with other feeds. If I don't see an improvement in the next day or so or if she gets worse I will take her someplace else. Does this sound good? Sould I give the Vit. B each day?
     
  15. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Oh and yes, I am using Sue Reith's recipe.
     
  16. Sondra

    Sondra New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    ok I would not give prop glycol read ARticles on pg 3 Goat 101 by Sue Rieth on Ketosis and also those on Hypocalcimia Keep up the recipe for cmpk give her more than what you have been, 3 cc B Complex twice a day probios
     
  17. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Think I'll watch these old timers try to help you as far as meds, and what is wrong with her.........but for my 2 cents worth about the info that your vet give you about killing your doe with that 3 to 1 ratio that you've been feeding is B.S. , and that ain't baking soda if you know what I mean..........we, and I mean a bunch of us would be out back burrying our goats right now if that was the case.
    I do however like the plenty of good grass hay right now, and plenty of fresh water too. Don't think I would tinker around trying to abort those kids right now if she were mine. If I were to abort every time that I had a pregnant doe to go off feed (with no temp, and no serious discharge) I would probably never raise a kid here.

    Best wishes with your doe,

    Whim
     
  18. farm mom

    farm mom New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Thanks Sondra! So, 3cc Vit B twice a day or probios 2x a day? Just want to be sure here.
     
  19. whimmididdle

    whimmididdle Guest

    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    If all else fails here......try giving her some raw goat milk at room temp.....in a bowl.

    I let you decide whether or not you want to heat treat it first (CAE). Not too much at first if she's drinking it.....maybe start with a cup now.....then maybe another cup in an hour or two. .....maybe then two cups again about 3 hours after that.

    If you are getting at the point where you are at witts end.......then try this.

    Whim
     
  20. sagerat

    sagerat New Member

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    Re: 3lbs of alfalfa pellets to 1 lb of grain is killing my goat and unborn kids

    Hi Farm mom,
    I am in Central Oregon also. I had a 2 yr old FF Lamancha last year go off her feed and do exactly what your doe is doing. She had been eating 3 lbs of pellets and a 1 lb of grain too before she went off feed. We ended up giving her the homemade CMPK twice a day, B complex shots twice a day and probios. She would eat a little hay and nothing else. No fever. She wouldn't drink anything no matter what we tempted her with so we ended up going out several times a day and drenching her with water. She also looked like she'd shrunk and I thought her kids were dead. We did this for two weeks and she ended up delivering one huge very much alive buckling and she was fine. Started eating normal as soon as she kidded.

    This year we had all our does on the same feed of 3 lbs alfalfa pellets and 1 lb grain and none had problems.

    jo