Vita Ferm Goat Mineral Vs Right Now Onyx

Discussion in 'Dairy Goat Info' started by lovenmranch, Dec 11, 2010.

  1. lovenmranch

    lovenmranch New Member

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    I was feeding a mineral called Vita Ferm Goat mineral, then ran out and decided to switch to Onyx mineral. However I have been out of minerals for over three weeks now WAITING on getting them, My Feed rep was telling me that it was on back order when I am pretty sure he just for goat. all that is under the bridge now, as I picked up the onyx yesterday. When I compare the tags there is a pretty big difference and with my goats being without minerals I dont want them to get some kinds of toxicty. I was going to put the onyx out today free choice but now I am kinda scard, since again they have been without for almost a month. They have been on Full show goat feed. showmaster sale edge so they were getting some minerals. and they look great. I can just tell that they are lacking additional minerals . I have attached both tags for your review. maybe I should just put out some and not free choice. I like the goat minerals that i used to use but its priced at 30.30 a bag and 15.00 per bag to ship, However I will switch back the goat minerals if that is a good mineral. its just that mineral is a powder I mean really powder and we have a lot of wind. so it blows it everywhere.anyhow I will wait for your responses.


    **VITA FERM GOAT MINERAL**
    Guaranteed Analysis
    Calcium (Ca)………11.0% Min…..………....13.0% Max.
    Phosphorus (P)…..……………………………….6.0% Min.
    Salt (NaCl)…………..11.0% Min………...…..13.0% Max.
    Magnesium (Mg).…………………………………1.7% Min.
    Potassium (K)….………………………………….2.0% Min.
    Cobalt (Co).…………………………………….20 ppm Min.
    Copper (Cu)…………………………………..840 ppm Min.
    Iodine (I)..……………………………………….50 ppm Min.
    Manganese (Mn)………….………….……..325 ppm Min.
    Selenium (Se).…………….………….…..……13 ppm Min.
    Zinc (Zn)……….……..…………………….1,675 ppm Min.
    Vitamin A……………..………….…….300,000 IU/lb. Min.
    Vitamin D3………...…………….……....35,000 IU/lb. Min.
    Vitamin E…….……………….………..…….500 IU/lb. Min.
    Vitamin B12……………….……………....15.0 mcg/lb.Min.

    Ingredients
    Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Corn Distillers Dried Grains with Solubles, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Cottonseed Meal, Potassium Chloride, Heat Processed Soybean Meal, Magnesium Oxide, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Product, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Choline Chloride, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Hydrochloride, Mineral Oil, Copper Sulfate.



    RIGHT NOW ONYX TAG

    Guaranteed Analysis
    Calcium (Ca)………13.5% Min…..………....14.5% Max.
    Phosphorus (P)…..……………………………….7.0% Min.
    Salt (NaCl)…………..15.0% Min………...…..18.0% Max.
    SODIUM MIN 5,8 MAX 6.5
    Magnesium (Mg).…………………………………3.0% Min.
    Potassium (K)….………………………………….1.5% Min.
    Cobalt (Co).…………………………………….20 ppm Min.
    Copper (Cu)…………………………………..2,000 ppm Min.
    Iodine (I)..……………………………………….200 ppm Min.
    Manganese (Mn)………….………….……..4000 ppm Min.
    Selenium (Se).…………….………….…..……26 ppm Min.
    Zinc (Zn)……….……..…………………….4500 ppm Min.
    Vitamin A……………..………….…….200,000 IU/lb. Min.
    Vitamin D………...…………….……....20,000 IU/lb. Min.
    Vitamin E…….……………….………..…….200 IU/lb. Min.


    Thanks
    Melissa
     
  2. goatkid

    goatkid New Member

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    What their mineral needs are depends on what the minerals are like where you live. The copper in your goat mineral seems quite low unless your soil is copper rich. I've switched minerals with no toxic effects. The goats seem to take only what they need, as compared to feeding grain. If you're concerned, you could hand feed them some the first few days beofre filling their mineral feeder. I use Onyx and like it.
     

  3. wheytogosaanens

    wheytogosaanens New Member

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    The Right Now Onyx is a better mineral. Better copper (by far!) and twice the selenium (still too low for us, and I believe that S. Calif is also deficient in both copper and selenium).

    Is the old mineral powder or the new one? (Sorry, not clear to me which one you were referring to...). If the old one is powdery, then it looks like the Onyx is a better mineral all the way around.

    BTW, is the mineral $30 for 25 or 50 lbs? You may be able to find a good dairy cattle mineral or even straight cattle mineral for less $$...

    Anyway, the Onyx should be perfectly safe for you to feed free choice to your goats.
     
  4. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    With cottonseed meal and other grain in the first mineral along with it having only one form of copper...copper sulfate (the cheapest one and less bioavailable) I would never spend the money on this that you do...it's a $15 per 50 pound sack of cattle minerals at best.

    Do you have the printout from the Onyx? It makes little difference if the 2000ppm of copper is also only coming from copper sulfate, in the quality of the mineral (feeding minerals that high in PPM of copper sulfate only is dangerous to the rumen). If it has copper amino chelates, or copper oxide etc....than yes I would move. But honestly go down and get a loose cattle or horse mineral for your area, and copper bolus your does, giving bo-se for the selenium before breeding and before kidding, and to kids at birth, unless you need more. Being in horse country you could also top dress with selenium E crumbles like they do on horse farms. Southern California doesn't seem to have the problems with mineral defficency the northwest coast does, likely because of the quality of hay you are getting in the valley, don't go spending money like that on minerals you don't need. I would learn to fecal, but you will also find you don't have worm burdens from your dryness. Vicki
     
  5. lovenmranch

    lovenmranch New Member

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    here is the ingredients: list of the onyx tag

    calcuim carbonate, dicalcuim phosphate, monocalcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, ethylendediamine dihydroiodide, cobalt carconate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfat, magnesium oxide, iron oxide, zinc amino acid complex, copper amino acid complex, menadione dimethylpyrimidinal bisulfite(source of vitamin k activity), maganese amino acid complex, cobalt glucoheptonate, selenuim yeast, sodium selenite, vitamin a supplement, vitamin d supplement, vitimin e supplement, processed grain by-products, molasses products, mineral oil.

    ok i hand typed that from the tag so there might be a few spelling errors, i pulled all the minerals out because i worried about it . i did have two does die of copper poisoning two years back(per vets necropsy) so I dont or havent copper bolused

    Melissa
     
  6. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Melissa are you coastal or desert? Near commercial agriculture?
    Saanendoah research on copper deficiency was done in Temecula in Riverside County and USC calls copper toxicity rare for that area unless agricultural runoff is in your water or you live in a slough where the runoff from boat paint makes several forms of copper sludge.

    http://saanendoah.com/copper1.html

    What do they eat for bulk?
     
  7. lovenmranch

    lovenmranch New Member

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    Buckrun,

    Yes I live in the desert, Yes near commercial growers( alfafa, carrot, potatoe). I have read the Saanendoah website 100's of times and I use to follow it to the letter. Weigh the goats get out the gram scale, measure out the bolus. etc.. anyhow it just didnt work for our farm with deaths happening . the test came back with super incredibly high copper levels so I do not do it anyone and actually have not had really any issue with copper shortage type problems, My goats are large , great coats and beautiful, So will not be doing the copper bolus which is why I want to get them a really good mineral. If I do see any type of "copper related issues" I will give them a shot of cattle min max,( I do give this the day before or after the does kids for an extra boost) even though it doesnt stay in the system all that long. it works well for our farm, I was trying to get input on the onyx its self. when I put it out yesterday they ate some and walked away so it looked like they were self regulating but again since they are my prized show goats, I pulled it out of the feeders so I could do more research , even thought i feel I researched the tar out of it before I order it..hahahha. I only have access to the purina goat mineral, the one that I mentioned above and the good ol red salt bagged mineral I guess I could mix that will a little onyx since I dont want to waste it. and my goats are again out of minerals. my husband is getting mad at me because he says i keep "experimenting" and its costing us money. Thats really not my intention if I could just find something that is cheaper then 45.00 that works would be awesome. so thats why I thought to switch to onyx because I heard alot of goat people using it. now I may have made a mistake again.

    Melissa
     
  8. buckrun

    buckrun New Member

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    Thanks for that additional background Melissa. I was very curious because the area is not known for overdose but rather deficiency so wondered if it was environmental or management. If you are using the Mineral Max in conjunction with bolus and oral loose mineral as well- keeping in mind there is a mineral pack in your pelleted ration too you could very well induce overdose. I hope you can find what works. The onyx seems to work for many people on this forum and it does sound like they are self regulating and with out the bolus it should be just fine. Changing too quickly will not let you know. It would take more time and observation to know if they were going to overconsume. Mineral max is readily available in the system- it is in the carbonate form and so you could easily have 'topped off' the levels of tolerable if they were getting so many other sources of copper. Perhaps your feed has high enough copper and you don't need a loose mineral. Do you know the copper content of your feed? Is your graze watered with agricultural runoff? What is the primary intake for the goats?
    Your forage or hay?

    I am asking about your bulk because some alfalfa if grown in conjunction with the proper bacteria which establishes in older fields can accumulate copper and zinc beyond the norm and well beyond grass hay.
     
  9. NubianSoaps.com

    NubianSoaps.com New Member

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    When you use a mineral like Onyx that isn't sweet, and doesn't contain the grain in it like the other mineral, they will only go to the mineral for the salt. That is preferred and limits consumption. By scewing the intake with grain or a lot of molassas, the goats eat alot more of the mineral, which makes you think it means it's a better mineral, they surely are eating it because they are missing something in their diet, when nothing is further from the truth.

    It simply isn't that hard, but I would not be bolusing and using minerals with higer than normal amounts of copper in it, Joyce warns against this on her site...it feaked her out that my Tech Master had such good forms of copper in it and I was bolusing my bucks before getting good liver biopsies back. And a freshly bolused goat, who gets a liver biopsy will have a scarry high score as we have seen on this form, we simply never have seen this, but i think it's because of our iron ore so blocking absorpition and why I don't feed a red mineral. I had Joyce though to help me read my first liver biopsies, because my vet admitted that she knew nothing, in fact she thought originally it was a huge waste of time :)
     
  10. R and R Farms

    R and R Farms New Member

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    Vicki, I am researching minerals right now and noticed your statement about the Onyx only containing copper sulfate. I also noticed an older post (2008) on the HT forum where you posted the ingredients to Techmaster and they too contained only copper sulfate. Was this a misprint or has Bluebonnet changed their ingredients in the last couple years?