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Old 11-10-2009, 04:05 PM   #11
prairie nights
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

I always research off springs from a bloodline I am interested in. Often I see does that came from great parents but the off springs don't look as good as the parents so the breeding was not an improvement. Like Vicki said, look at what the breeders are breeding to and what they are keeping or not keeping out of those bloodlines.



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Old 11-10-2009, 07:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

I feel at a disadvantage. Our local goat breeder population is very small, nationally is a little better. Unless one travels great distances for shows -or- every breeder has an extensive website, how is it possible to gain that sort of information?



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Old 11-10-2009, 08:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

Thank you all for your help. Here's the pedigree of my big girls. They're both out of Sanstorm's line...

Fancy:
Sire - Lady-K WREC Smitty
~Sire's sire - Willow Run Elijah Compliance
~Sire's dam - CH Lady-K FTI Melody

Dam - Brambleberry Shay Delta
~Dam's sire - Iron-rod Jim Shamison
AI
~Dam's Dam - Sanstorms Roscoe Seven
AI 1*M

Dew:
Sire - Sanstorms Classical Samson
~Sire's sire - Sanstorms First Class
AI *B
~Sire's dam - Sanstorms Rocky Savannah

Dam - Sanstorms Roscoe Seven
AI 1*M
~Dam's sire - Sunshine Robelta's Roscoe
++*B AR1995 ST1996 CL1977
~Dam's dam - Sanstorms Rocky Shaylee

On my RG doelings, their Sire's sire has an AI ++*B too...

So, can anyone help me figure out what all that means on their pedigrees? I know that both my Alpines are good producers, both should have good sweet creamy milk (I think Dew would've if it hadn't been for her bout with mastitis this year). When we were buying before the girls had weaned their babies, we'd have a head of cream on the gallon a good inch thick or more!

Thanks!!!

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Old 11-10-2009, 09:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

And those 2 letter + 4 number combos - are those show abbreviations and initials? I'm so new to all this. All we wanted when we bought them was good quality family milkers. Now we want to improve genetics and really excel in what we produce (even if we never ever become a dairy or anything else like that). And, I'm in way over my head right now. I don't know where to look to start researching this stuff or what I'm reading when I do find something!!! All I know is that my "goat lady" and her friend really took their time to research genetics so that their goats would be good quality. Also, the friend did a bunch of research and came up with a custom grain ration that we still use to this day. Obviously this is something that can be done, I just need direction.

Thanks again!!!

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Old 11-10-2009, 11:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

Hi Erin,

Sure.....be glad to explain a little more. I wanted to say more last night but DH was begging for dinner and I got home late, so as dinner cooked I was multi-tasking and trying to answer his questions and write at the same time! *Sigh*

I understand getting the best buck one can afford, focusing on bloodlines with characteristics strong where the does are weak. Are you saying that doesn't necessarily improve offspring?
Unless certain bloodlines have been crossed before, how is there anyway to know what 'works'?[/quote]

In my experiences over the past 20 some years I have learned that not all expensive bucks will necessarily cross well with all bloodlines. I have owned a few expensive top quality bucks over the years plus have a lot of expensive and valuable bucks in my tank......and discovered that not all lines will cross well with others. Hence my reasoning and suggestion for networking with other breeders in your chosen breed. And even if you do research, sometimes genetics are what they are and you get what you got.

To improve the quality of your goats you first have to know their weaknesses and find a buck that will improve or throw back improvements. To give an example, if you need to improve front ends you want to look for a buck that will improve that, but at the same time you need to know his shortcomings and weaknesses too. It may turn out that in improving in one area you loose something in another. I haven't checked in awhile the ADGA site, but the old Missdees site had a section in genetics and pedigrees that gave you the weaknesses and strengths of each animal in their file if it existed. I'm not sure if it's still there or not on the ADGA site. Thats why LA scores are so important, you need to know strengths and weaknesses.

And.....you are exactly right: if certain bloodlines haven't been crossed before how would you know? You don't really, it's all individualized and a guessing/prediction/probability game. Even repeating a breeding you know worked will not produce the exact same results. But, by knowing strengths and weaknesses before hand helps to give you an idea. You want to also look at the traits and see if those bucks consistently throw certain strong or weak traits. An example would be: And this comes from one of my breeding experiences: I used one of my expensive bucks to do an outcross breeding, a French Alpine, the doe, to an American, my buck. The cross had worked the year before. But then the following year the doe had a doe kid with 4 teats, that breeding hit on the gene. I then asked my, "walking/talking" Alpine trait encylopedia friend and we reviwed the pedigrees. Well...way back when the doe had a gene for 4 teats, wouldn't have known that had she not told me that 2 decades earlier the line way back had that gene.

I noticed you are from Canada, the Canadian goat pedigree website is a little more informative than ADGA's, or used to be. Have you tried that data base yet?

I hope this helped to answer your question and not confused you more.

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Old 11-10-2009, 11:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

Hi Amy!


I'll try my best to answer your question and to shed some light here. The initials do pertain to showing. Your question reminds me of when we first started years ago asking the same question about the abbrivations. But back in the day before the internet you had to call ADGA.

I'll try to break this down and to also give you some insights into their Alpine bloodlines. I'll respond after each goat.


Fancy:
Sire - Lady-K WREC Smitty
~Sire's sire - Willow Run Elijah Compliance
~Sire's dam - CH Lady-K FTI Melody

Dam - Brambleberry Shay Delta
~Dam's sire - Iron-rod Jim Shamison
AI
~Dam's Dam - Sanstorms Roscoe Seven
AI 1*M

Nice breeding here. To see more about the Lady K lines do a google search for Lady K, I believe she has a website. Look for Fancy's Smitty's info if she has it on her website or google the buck or does name, that will bring up info too. Or you can e-mail Karen, she is a sweet person, and if memory serves me right she is a judge too. Karen has built up a very nice herd of show Alpines and has placed very well in shows locally and nationally. I used to know all the show placings, etc off the top of my head yrs ago. I used to be the history chair for Alpines International yrs ago. But alas.......lost track the past few yrs with life changes. Not familiar with the Brambleberry herd. Not sure with old age about Compliance, will have to check him out. Willow Run used to have a website. They no longer do as they sold out a few yrs back. The owner, Patti Dean had a huge goat dairy and lived/lives in Ohio. Patti consistently placed at the top at nationals for yrs, in all 5 breeds she had national champions of CH for champions. Iron Rod is owned by Leslie Sidwell. She lives here in Virginia and is a sweetheart, plus very knowledgable. She also had a national GCH back in the mid 1990's. Dag....used to know that doe off the top of my head.! She raises French Alpines. Not too familiar with the Sanstroms line, but they are known for their milk production. The AI means artifical insemination and the 1*M means she earned her milking star by producing over...dag, can't remember off the top of my head, I think 1500 pounds of milk in 305 days. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I haven't been on test in several yrs now.

Dew:
Sire - Sanstorms Classical Samson
~Sire's sire - Sanstorms First Class
AI *B
~Sire's dam - Sanstorms Rocky Savannah


Dam - Sanstorms Roscoe Seven
AI 1*M
~Dam's sire - Sunshine Robelta's Roscoe
++*B AR1995 ST1996 CL1977
The above infornmation means: that the information is in the ADGA registery and where to find it. It's a report that comes out and lists milk production information. The ++*B is the highest ranking so to speak for a buck. He has produced daughters and sons that have done well.
~Dam's dam - Sanstorms Rocky Shaylee

On my RG doelings, their Sire's sire has an AI ++*B too...

I'll have to research the Sanstrom lines on ADGA genetics or else in my old DGJ's to get the complete bloodline pedigrees.
I'll post this first in case my computer freezes

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Old 11-11-2009, 01:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

That you'll get peed on.. a lot.

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Old 11-11-2009, 01:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

Thanks so much Bernice!!! That is so helpful! Maybe by talking to you all I can figure this out!! Also will talk to Pauline about this kind of stuff. I know she is very knowledgeable too, especially with the local herds.

Ashley - I've already been peed on, pooped on, and thrown up on more times than I can count. That's not including the livestock!!

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Old 11-12-2009, 11:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

Thanks Bernice. That explanation helps a lot. I've always wondered why it was assumed that offspring would gain the best characteristics of their parents, and not the weaknesses. It makes sense to me that *that* does happen sometimes.

I've been studying the CLRC like mad, but just looking at pedigrees (they only use registered names, no show or milk letters) isn't helping terribly much. It be nice if they had pictures of every goat

I've recently found another Canadian goat genetics site, which is quite helpful to get a quantitative value of the top goats. But alas, still no pictures.

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Old 11-12-2009, 01:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: What do I need to know about bucks?

"It be nice if they had pictures of every goat....... But alas, still no pictures. "

I've found with searching ADGA's site, that if I copy and paste the name of a goat into google, that it usually comes up with the site that owns the animal, or a previous owner, or someone that's used him (if a buck). Anyhow, usually somewhere it comes up with a site that has a picture.



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