Is she stargazing?

Ashley · 08-20-2010, 08:04 PM

I am just so confused about Penny. She is not well, I think pneumonia (wasn't wanting to eat her grain, gurgling sounds when breathing, reluctant to lay down, occasionally snot on her nose), this started night before last. I am treating her and she has improved and this morning was even trying to come in the barn before her turn to eat, (which I didn't give her much grain and gave her some alfalfa pellets). Anyway, what is weird is she is, I guess (haven't seen it before so don't know if that's what it is) stargazing some of the time. Any time she is at rest, laying down or standing up, she tilts her head up and slightly to the right. But she will do this, and then go right back to grazing. She is eating better now and still goes out with the does all day long and grazes. But I've very unsettled with her and not sure if I should give thiamine? But if polio I would expect her to have gone down by now- it's been almost 48 hrs since she started doing this?

Another thing to consider is she is the doe that has had some kind of problem I can never put my finger on, something in her back maybe? And for example, a few months ago she kinda missed getting up on the stand and started to fall backwards. Well, she didn't put her head down to counterbalance like you would expect, her head stayed up as she fell back and I caught her. It's like she has some kind of tension or discomfort and I don't know if being sick is making that worse and would make her hold her head that way?

I did give her b vitamin complex that first night "just in case" since I wouldn't be out there all night and then watched her all day the next day. Like I say, she is improving.. just still does this and I don't know what to think of it?

She never completely quit eating but came in with a very empty belly that first night and wouldn't eat her grain. Now she is eating well, still not stuffing her rumen like normal though. But she chews her cud, no diarrhea etc.

I know there has been something wrong with this doe for a long time and I just don't know how to figure out what it is. Maybe it's all because of those liver flukes. I have started giving her herbs for her liver in case this is the source of her problems.

prairie nights · 08-20-2010, 08:15 PM

Ashley,

this sounds very much like the symptoms we had here with pneumonia - the stargazing was an effort to open up the air passages into the lungs - check the color of her tongue and membranes, ours were turning purple, first red purple then blue tones. They already had respiratory distress and unfortunately did not make it. Feel around the throat and on the bottom of the chest floor if you feel water - edema like soft build up - they are retaining water. I used natural feeds like watermelon as diarrhetic when they were retaining water like this. In humans the ankles would be swollen in this stage.

Are you using antibiotics?

Mine were perfectly normal other than this and CHarlotte relapsed like this after she tilted her head funny but she was also dripping fluid from her mouth like salivating. Hope it's not the same thing with Penny !!

Jana

Squires · 08-20-2010, 11:13 PM

Could be she is weak, but, anything possibly neurological (weak hind legs, turninghead, looking odd) is worth calling the vet about and starting some sort of treatment.

I try to keep my animals vaccinated for rabies, because we have had epidemics of that in the wildlife around here, and I would rather that my animals don't give me rabies -- which also has neurological symptoms and consequences.

If beginning to star-gaze, you want to start giving her prescription-strength THIAMINE -- the mixed B-vitamins are not strong enough to do anything. If you see noticeable improvement, you want to KEEP giving shots of thiamine for several days. A shot or two of thiamine will do no harm -- if it does good you want to follow up on that!

Listeriosis, which is a bacteria found in all soils, and sometimes gets into feed -- Pen G is the preferred treatment.Oxytetracycline will work in a pinch.

BoSe is always good for a stressed animal -- not to mention that a selenium deficiency could be causing white-muscle disease and weakness in skeletal muscles or heart.

Meningeal Worm (deer worm) can damage the spinal cord and the brain -- Ivermectin, dexamethasone per vet, and some antibiotics are necessary. I think Valbazen will help if it is still in certain stages of development - I'm not an expert on this.

Banamine helps with inflammation and pain without compromising the immune system further like dexamethasone might - -although in some cases where nerve tissue is really damaged, you need that Dex.

I have an animal with a crooked blaze down her nose and just looking at her makes me sea-sick! When it is time for listeriosis or something to rear its ugly head, I do a lot of staring at her! She is the one animal who never gets sick.

These are all starting points -- some treatments can be started simultaneously with no harm. You need to ask experienced goat-keepers in your area what is going around and how they would respond. Or hope you can find a vet who has a clue about goats. In time you learn to recognize and sift through the information, narrowing down the possibilities.

Best Wishes,

LMonty · 08-20-2010, 11:37 PM

ashley I dont know what you might have in the medicine cabinet- probably better than mine LOL but if you need anything I have Dex, BoSe and Banamine. I'm off this weekend and could run it over to you or meet you in Yellville if you need it.

Ashley · 08-21-2010, 01:09 AM

Yea, I do think it is pnuemonia. I think the stargazing has been a little worse this afternoon because it's been very hot today. I expect that would make it worse I know heat will make asthma, etc worse. My mom thought her chest looked a bit swollen that first night, so that adds to the list. BTW her temp was only 102.7 but a herd mates was 101.7.

She is also quite thin. She does tend to do that when in milk however.

She is getting antibiotics. Also lung supportive/healing herbs and heart supportive herbs.

I'll give her the thiamine since it can't hurt but I don't think that's it.

Is pneumonia something they can have for a while under the radar before it gets bad? Her milk dropped about 3 or 4 weeks ago and the last week or two she hasn't been wanting to finish her oats.

Thanks so much for the kind offer Laura, I'll let you know of I need anything and I appreciate it.

NubianSoaps.com · 08-21-2010, 01:30 AM

It does make sense that she would position her airway to make it easier to breath, and also her lungs likely hurt. Antibiotics alone likely won't cut it because her lung airways are so inflammed. If you don't use a NASID drug like Dex or Banamine, her airways will scar and she will forever be a mouth breather if she is even able to ralley her immune system to get over this.

What antibiotic did you choose? Vicki

Nancy · 08-21-2010, 01:40 AM

We have nuflor and excenel if you need it. Make sure she doesn't get dehydrated. We have lactated ringers too if you need them.

prairie nights · 08-21-2010, 02:06 AM

Ashley,

we also had does with lungs effected like this having difficulty lying down - despite benamine they would be grunting and would prefer to stand up or pull up on their elbows. The grunt was very similar to the preggo grunt they often make heavy bred. We also saw distented rumens from extra water retained in some cases, I was helping a friend with her herd and both who had that in her herd unfortunately did not make it.

If I could do this all over with Charlotte, I would go aggressively with Dex like Vicki mentioned and Naxcel from the get go or Baytril. Any fever? Coughing? The symptoms of the viral infection in most were very mild, we mostly caught it because of fevers, but everyone but Charlotte were still eating and behaving like normal. The ones with symptoms appeared stressed from heat, so easily overlooked in this weather.

Jana

prairie nights · 08-21-2010, 02:11 AM

Ashley,

as weird as it sounds, at this stage of water accumulating in the lungs and causing difficulty breathing (to the point that if they were moved or bounced , they became vocal as in scared, I think they lost control of the breathing pattern for a while and got stressed more) ours did better without the lactated ringers, the fluid from the iv was not getting absorbed at all and accumulating immediately under their bellies and stayed there for over 48 hours. All of them were still drinking at this stage and they were getting the lac. ringers through the entire treatment but it seemed to add to the problem past this point. Teh gazing part came hours before death, not sure if it's the same you are dealing with - you may still have some lung issue, pain and respiratory distress.

Jana

prairie nights · 08-21-2010, 02:19 AM

Keep thinking about your doe Penny (because I definitely hope you don't have what we just had here) and another thought that came to mind was ear infection. Charlotte had liquid in both lungs and ears post mortum, hard to tell but it smelled very foul.

Jana

Is she stargazing?

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