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Old 10-07-2011, 11:09 AM   #1
dm9960
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Default multi min & copper bolus

I gave my goats multi min 90 a couple months ago, my neighbor said not to do the copper bolus since there is copper in the multi min. But everyone looks like they need a good bolus. Is it safe to give a copper bolus or should I wait? maybe a smaller dose?
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

Back in the 90's every single problem with goats was blamed on selenium, I should have purchased stock in the company that puts out Bo-se! The very same thing is happening today with copper...it really does become, give someone a little bit of information and it is parroted to others in such crazy ways, that the information becomes dangerous.

You have to KNOW why you have chosen the management you have, you have to accept responsiblity for the management you choose. You are giving the multi-min as your copper and selenium...why would you now bolus also, when you don't even know if you are copper defficent to begin with?

I am not talking to you directly........ we have gals on this forum who after obviously not reading the basic studies done by Joyce for the saanendoah, we have the info up on here for everyone to read, done on goats for copper, they then decide to give goats whole boluses, to bolus every 2 or 3 months when it is clear that the bolus is in the stomach chambers for at least 6 months.

Sorry but I was never distrubited those xray glasses some seem to have....I can't see a little rough coat and immediatly know it is copper...how do you know it isn't zinc, how do you know it isn't bloodline and they carry more hair at flank, how do you know the skin problems aren't your low level of fat most goat feeds contain?

I am super happy with the injectable multimin for my bucks and doelings, we know it lasts 21 days in a cows system so I am giving the injections every first of the month, I would so much rather give and injection than bolus my bucks. Yes I bolus my adult does, but with the new info I put up in the copper section on top dressing, I am doing that now. I have a liver biopsy back from this month and even at 10 her copper, being topdressed this year and last fall was just over the high number, which is exactly what I am looking for....But we have high iron here, is it the copper number you should be looking for? Maybe not, iron binds the copper so more needs to be in the system, I can not get my iron out of my management because my girls live on an iorn oxide hill, everything is red, including the roads.

When you buy drugs, write down what you are buying them for, copy out and put into your goat binder what information you read that helped you make this decision. Know your management and why you are doing the things you are doing. And read saanendoah's information on copper, we have lost a lot of the links, sadly.

So....why do they look like they need copper? Have you ran a fecal? Go to goatkeeping 101 and look at the Famacha chart and are they anemic at all? What is the total fat in their diet? Are they getting calcium daily? What mineral mix are you using? Vicki



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Old 10-07-2011, 05:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

thank you for your reply Vicky. I am so glad I posted this question. I have a lot of homework to do. I will be checking things and will post as I get info

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Old 10-07-2011, 06:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

But Vicki, Dawn says she gave the multimin 2 months ago. Shouldn't that be out of the system by now?

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Old 10-07-2011, 06:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

I have noticed that the winter coats my goats grow are different colored. The black ones grow longer reddish brown hair sometimes. Red ones may grow black overcoat. You do have to know what normal is. It can freak you out at first when your black goat turns red. It really helps to have photos of parents too. I kept scrutinizing this one goat wondering why he was getting redder and redder, and then I noticed in a photo of mom that she had a red overcoat in the winter.

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Old 10-07-2011, 06:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

Angie, I hadn't thought of that, time to look at pictures. How often should i do the multimin? I have high iron here in the water. There eyelids are pink. Last year I had a nubian doe that had a rough coat, hair in all directions, etc. I gave her a bolus and she showed improvement. Then I read about multimin, thought I would try that, so did so a couple months ago. Should I do multimin every month or bolus, or both. I feed them Noble Goat, been giving them beet pulp, but some won't eat the beet pulp. My husband got whole oats a couple days ago to add to the Noble Goat. oh and coastal grass ha.

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Old 10-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

I'm getting conflicting opinions on this. One opinion is that multimin should be given every 2-3 months, another opinion is that it should be given once every 6 months, both with free choice loose minerals. I'm getting very confused

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Old 10-08-2011, 06:06 PM   #8
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

Quote:
I'm getting conflicting opinions on this. One opinion
There is no single right answer. Re-read what Vicki posted above. It depends on your area, on the genetics of your herd, on your management, on the quality of your feed, your supplements, your mineral schedule, on the weather (not kidding), etc. The only really reliable way is to talk to people in your area who are using fact-based approaches... people who do post-mortems, who test, who have real data to back up some practices. Or, use solid anecdotal examples and go from there to see if it works.

If your goats are healthy, you're doing fine. If you're having issues, investigate. From a best practices perspective, there's no reason to add all sorts of fancy stuff if what you are doing works, resulting in does who live for a long time with good health, and minimal kidding problems.
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

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Old 10-11-2011, 12:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: multi min & copper bolus

I use them in conjunction. The effects of mineral max are transient and I use that tool more as a trouble shooter in stress situations or for animals from lines that are more needy. I still bolus because it gives long lasting results and keeps everyone on an even keel as far as looking like waxed glass!

Get the bottle and look at the label. Copper is minimal in this mix. The MAIN benefit of this injection is the huge supplement of zinc which is a much underused nutritional tool with ruminants. Manganese is also underrated as therapeutic in goats because once again all the research has been done with cattle. I also do not let the selenium levels in this mix derail my Bo-Se supplementation. It is a minor dose- just as I consider it a minor dose of copper because it is in the carbonate form and it is not going via digestion. They are not really comparable as a management tools.

Dawn....mineral max is generally put to use in the system within 21 days whereas the bolus is longer lasting and can contribute to liver stores to be called upon when daily dietary sources are lacking.
ANY hair color changes seasonally are nutritional. A goat is an established color once it is mature and if it is not that color with a soft silky coat that lays in uniform direction- meaning following the contours of the body and not doing spirals and waves and sculptures on the sides then they need more copper. If you see this generationally you are not seeing something that is normal to that line- you are seeing the genetic predisposition to needing more copper to maintain coat color and or the tendency towards processing dietary copper poorly.

I would like to ask that you please do not depend on the famacha chart for anything. It only tells you that you have neglected an animal beyond the timeframe that will ever allow it to reach genetic potential. Keep on a schedule with management - goats thrive on consistency. Waiting until they are anemic to do something about whatever is causing that is for 3rd world countries that are so poor they have no choice to but to manage this way.

Lee

MIN Max

Zinc, not less than 20 mg/ml

Manganese, not less than 20 mg/ml

Selenium, not less than 5 mg/ml

Copper, not less than 10 mg/m



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